Petrarchive – Depression

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No.10498 Anonymous>>10499 >>10509
Depression
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People act like Depression is just this freak pathology that can strike you arbitrarily at any time. Like lymphoma or getting hit by the number 9 bus.

When I think about it, though, pretty much everyone who I have known who has been depressed, has had fairly good reasons. Poor social life, bad academics, non-existent love life, unhealthy lifestyles, substance dependencies, shit jobs, and so on. Obviously there is a bit of a cause-and-effect problem here, but the correlation at least is almost perfect.

Meanwhile, all the people who I meet who seem most invulnerable to even the slightest shadow of depression; who find it almost quaint or curious as a concept, as if it's not even clear to them what it would be like to feel that way... are the ones for whom everything has pretty much come up trumps. Fulfilling jobs, good social lives, healthy lifestyles, hot girlfriends, you name it.

As I write this out it seems almost too stupid and obvious to say. Clearly people with depression are more likely to have problems in their lives. Is that really the narrative we see in popular culture though? The media loves the inexplicably depressed person, who just can't shake off the black dog even though they've got everything going for them. When my guess is that 95% of depression cases are tediously and trivially explicable.

Maybe the reason is that if we accepted that people are depressed due to actual and material problems, we would feel obliged to try and help solve them. We'd much rather hide behind a sable canine, as intractable as it is metaphorical.
No.10499 Anonymous>>10502
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>>10498 (OP)

>As I write this out it seems almost too stupid and obvious to say. Clearly people with depression are more likely to have problems in their lives. Is that really the narrative we see in popular culture though? The media loves the inexplicably depressed person, who just can't shake off the black dog even though they've got everything going for them. When my guess is that 95% of depression cases are tediously and trivially explicable.

depression =! dissatisfaction.

the reason why there's so "many hot/rich/famous and yet depressed" characters in recent media is because it's only recently become an archetype in vogue. before, it was mostly "any hot/rich/famous" character where the conflict arose from a love interest or tragedy or what have you rather than their fee-fees explicitly.

one (probably not applicable) example that I can come up with is breakfast at tiffany's and the sopranos (I know, I know). both protagonized by the ideal for each respective gender (hot, demure and wealthy socialite; wealthy, powerful, womanizing mafia boss) and were burdened by depression (arguably, holly would be considered as depressed. the scenes depicting her bedroom come to mind). however, they're both characterized in entirely different ways. tony is depressed outright and the show makes no attempt to conceal it. holly, though, is boxed into the manic pixie dream girl role which then excuses all the symptoms that, to my modern eye (here you might reasonably object on the basis of contemporary bias), signal a depressed person.

going back to my original claim where dissatisfaction is not depression, you would have to draw the line between dissatisfaction and depression, since I'm debating what you say on semantics more than anything. can someone who has all their bases covered on the hierarchy of needs still be considered depressed? if not, why are so many rich people incredibly miserable (think HBO's succession)? is everyone damned to be at least somewhat dissatisfied no matter how much they achieve?

i think to answer your question you would first have to establish what falls under depression the medical diagnosis and what falls under just good old samsara as the Buddha described it god knows how long.

p.s.: i know i've already shilled succession once on this post but please do watch it if you can; it might help with the whole perfect life and still living miserably thing you mention
No.10502 Anonymous
>>10499
it's hard to not consider kendall roy depressed when he has so many suicidal moments in that show. suicidality is what makes something medical because suicide is irrational unless u have cancer or are a slave being trafficked
No.10504 Anonymous>>10544
there are 2 types of depression in my opinion

1) due to circumstances (this is the one I have)

2) clinical (this is the one tony soprano has)
No.10507 Anonymous
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Depression today is a general purpose munchausen illness available to everybody -- an unfalisifiable, self-fulfilling prophecy that protects your ego from unflattering observations about your behavior. It's Chronic Lyme/PCOS/EDS for dudes.

And I'm not even saying "depression is fake" or "you don't have depression", just that people are capable of steering themselves ever so slightly towards or away from depression, and the majority of people of our time choose to steer themselves towards it. And yes, there are people who couldn't steer themselves out of it if they tried, but you're not one of them. If you didn't want to be depressed you'd find a way out of it. All of this 10x for ADHD and 0.5x for anxiety
No.10509 Anonymous>>10510 >>10512
>>10498 (OP)

I'm with you, OP. My brother graduated his master's program in teaching in '09 and moved across the country to be supportive of his wife. But he moved to DC, a place overrun with over-educated, under-employed 20-somethings and he never got a sub job that transitioned into full-time. So he worked in a warehouse and got fuckung depressed. His wife left him because his depression gave her the ick, and then he had to move in with our parents and he has worked at the local jail ever since. Weirdly he's the world's #1 believer that mental health is all chemical, and that there's nothing his body can do to produce the adequate feel-good chemicals to give him reason to live. He will also go on and on about therapy and Buddha if you let him. He still wears his wedding ring even though his ex has a toddler with her second husband, a guy she met at work.

So I'll go even wider than OP. "Shit life syndrome" is the main mental and physical health condition in the developed world, and it's grotesque that doctors have played along with the idea of medicalizing huge deaths of the population for having normal reactions to their shit lives. At least in the postwar era psychiatrists were largely oriented towards "adjustment," reconciling angry traumatized war vets with conformist culture and industrial life. Now there's not even any culture left to conform to, nothing to hold you when you need it. And forget about therapists who prioritize adjustment, because the approach of "making the best of the circumstances" would be unacceptably oppressive to women, queers, and racial minorities. Therapy culture is instead either boomer Buddhist slop (read: California nihilism) or left-Nietzschean queer theory:
>It's up to you to give meaning to your shit life!
>That's 100% on you!
>You can be anything! You can be a man, a woman, both or neither! We'll redefine society around you!
>But you also will never get over being sick inside and you need these pills so you won't kill yourself!

What a sick cruel mockery of the human condition.
No.10510 Anonymous
>>10509

Lots of typos
>Medicalizing huge SWATHS of the population
No.10511 Anonymous
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Alright, to all of you depressed people who just want to yap and not fix it... you have this thread.
To anyone who does want to fix it... Stop seeing depression as some type of illness, melancholy, or symptom that something is wrong in your life. Its not any of those things.

You are sad because you're thinking rather than acting. Now as to why you're doing that we can write blog-post and ruminate on the mundane reason this is the case (divorce, death, poverty, loneliness) but the truth is, you just need to start acting.
Stop thinking, start acting. And before you say
>easier said than done
sure, but I've 'had depression' longer than all of you and for better reasons and I still get it from time to time. The only way out is distraction OR acceptance not 'exploring your ideas/feelings' in your head all day. Its also not waiting for the right opportunity to final 'fix' your life.
Its time to accept what's happened and get over it, if you can't? then the trope of faking it until you make should be applicable.

There is nothing wrong with you, this society promotes maladaptive behaviors to the slightest 'set backs'. Our cultures use to promote 'grit', but now everything is safe-space hug-box of agreeableness.
If you're 'loser', either fix it or accept it. but don't do this ruminating shit. Its not a sign of intelligence...its a sign of of mental feebleness, a stammer, a fear of accepting what happened or fixing what happened.
No.10512 Anonymous>>10513
>>10509

>He's the world's #1 believer that mental health is all chemical, and that there's nothing his body can do to produce the adequate feel-good chemicals to give him reason to live

This problem precedes all of the others. I'd go as far as to say this is his ONLY problem.

So he couldn't find a teaching job (a field in constant labor shortage) and nuked his life into working at a jail, living with his parents. How is this the fault of contemporary political economy or whatever? Would based maga communism have saved him? Should we fund a government program that provides failure-to-thrive divorcees with prestigious office jobs? Life has always come with struggle and grief and you can choose to fight for yourself or you can smoke weed and let your life smoulder to nothing.

That you sneer at "It's up to you to give meaning to your shit life" is notable. Who else could it possibly be up to?
No.10513 Anonymous>>10514
>>10512
>That you sneer at "It's up to you to give meaning to your shit life" is notable. Who else could it possibly be up to?
NTA. But I'd argue the people who rule/upper caste (historically speaking) have all the incentive to giving you a positive meaning in your life. If they don't? well revolutions start if everything 'goes wrong' with enough people. Give them a meaning, an enemy, mythos, culture or face collapse. I have the feeling westerners are in the latter. It seems slow but if you zoom out its currently in free-fall with nihilism
No.10514 Anonymous>>10516
>>10513

Nobody here is a lumpenprole that needs a premade belief system from Peter Thiel or whoever
No.10516 Anonymous>>10517 >>10530
>>10514
if you're so confident in your ability of having purpose in your life without having anyone influence you...
why read?
why watch videos?
why talk to anyone?
What do you think any of these things are doing?
You are not a closed system of rigid beliefs, you're always being influenced and having your believes changed by external factors.
Now whether you're aware of that not is a different conversation...
No.10517 Anonymous>>10518
>>10516

>why why why why why why why why why why why
No.10518 Anonymous
>>10517
>has no answer
speaks volumes, anything but grow anon. you're never wrong, so you never learn
No.10519 Anonymous>>10528
>How is this the fault of contemporary political economy or whatever? Would based maga communism have saved him? Should we fund a government program that provides failure-to-thrive divorcees with prestigious office jobs? Life has always come with struggle and grief and you can choose to fight for yourself or you can smoke weed and let your life smoulder to nothing.

First of all, it's bizarre that you suddenly jumped to social engineering and politics. And specifically it's bizarre that you think I'm a red-brown maga communist. Truly staggering powers of inference from this big brain boy.

If you're actually asking me about the woulda-shoulda-couldas of my brother's life, my simple view is that he should have stuck with the school where he did student teaching for 1-2 years. He and his wife had already made remote arrangements work for a while, and they could have had summers together. After a few years he would have a more realistic resume, and then he should have either made his wife come to him (she had availability but he bent over backwards for her) or they should have triangulated on a place where they both could work.

So to tie it back to social determinants of depression (which you seem to be desperate to evade), the lesson here is that a single relationship is probably not enough to justify extreme social dislocation, and that a person who will electively submit himself or herself to extreme social dislocation for the sake of a single supportive individual is highly at-risk to become depressed. Does that make sense even though I didn't sperg out and say a political meme every 2 sentences?

If you're trying to get me to make this into a political thing, my political view is that a large labor marketplace (national or international) runs the risk of atomizing people, obviously, and that widespread depression is a predictable consequence of widespread atomization. My preferred solution would be to have a robust social welfare state so that working people can make more balanced choices in their work-life arrangements.

>That you sneer at "It's up to you to give meaning to your shit life" is notable. Who else could it possibly be up to?

Literally explore any philosophical or religious system, you nihilist insect.
No.10528 Anonymous>>10540
>>10519

>A single relationship is probably not enough to justify extreme social dislocation

>Does that make sense

I guess? So he's depressed because he moved with his wife. Moral of the story is to pursue long-distance arrangements, or you might get depressed.
No.10530 Anonymous
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>>10516

Sorry, I don't actually disagree with you really. I just think these questions are ruminative and having (or thinking you have) answers can hurt more than help.

I pledge to be a beacon of positivity from here on out
No.10540 Anonymous>>10541
>>10528

>durr if I ignore everything everyone else says I can make the other guy sound like a retard
>it's really working guys
No.10541 Anonymous
>>10540

This is a fair criticism for my behavior with the other guy but I really don’t get what your point is
No.10543 Anonymous>>10545
>10511
there is high functioning depression
theres also running from your problems
No.10544 Anonymous>>10552
>>10504
do you think tony sopranos depression arose without cause or something
No.10545 Anonymous>>10548
>>10543
>there is high functioning depression
>theres also running from your problems
Two things everyone experiences at some point in their life. Some find a way out through fixing a personal problem. while others dwell on their problems because it is outside of their control.
No.10548 Anonymous>>10549 >>10550
>>10545
you can't fix a problem without dwelling on it and others are functioning hard so they can prevent dwelling on it
No.10549 Anonymous>>10554
>>10548
Please tell me one instance where 'dwelling' on a problem works. I'll give you a faster solution to it.
Also this is assuming the dwelling isn't a pity-party you're throwing yourself (which it mostly is) or its just self embellishment/exaggeration for attention.

There's different levels to this and yes you can in fact 'fix a problem' without dwelling on it.
No.10550 Anonymous>>10554
>>10548

This is such a wires-crossed pop psych idea. "You can't fix a problem without dwelling on it" comes from Analysis, where the cause of ailments is obscure and mysterious and they aim to surface that cause (so that they can then address it). If the cause of your depression is some surface-level social determinant (my rent is too high, I can't find a teaching job) then what could dwelling possibly do?
No.10552 Anonymous
>>10544

putrid soprano genes. but yes circumstances also contribute
No.10554 Anonymous>>10555 >>10557
>>10549
contemplation is a thing always has been for positive reasons
>>10550
>cause of your depression is some surface-level social determinant (my rent is too high, I can't find a teaching job)
lol this moron
No.10555 Anonymous
>>10554

you've given me a lot to think about and I've decided I agree with you
No.10557 Anonymous>>10560 >>10582
>>10554
>cause of your depression is some surface-level social determinant

nta, my depression has a lot to do with childhood trauma but childhood trauma seems very surface level in general. yes I was beat but a lot of people were? it's just still jarring because im so sensitive
No.10558 Anonymous>>10573
>You don't need to understand why, just act differently
>You can't act freely without knowing why
Hello Adler, hello Freud. No need to fight. These are two proven strategies, each more or less efficient according to its nature and its context of application.
No.10560 Anonymous>>10580
>>10557

Early childhood experiences are super influential on your pathologies and behaviors, I don’t deny that at all. Very sorry to hear about that.
No.10563 Anonymous>>10565 >>10567
Hey guys, I cured depression!
I've been trying this thing called 'hedonism'. So far everything is great.
The meaning of life is dopamine.
I chase it in all forms... from drugs, video games, hookers etc.
Woah, who knew how fun this is.
>I was advised this nearly word for word with some embellishment by my cousin
No.10565 Anonymous>>10566
>>10563

The OG Greek hedonism is pretty reasonable
No.10566 Anonymous
>>10565
>The OG Greek hedonism is pretty reasonable
I'm assuming you mean the epicurean school of thought with moderation? Or enlighten me.
No.10567 Anonymous
>>10563
this works until u start feeling guilt over the fentanyl you're using probably destabilizing an indigenous Mexican town
No.10573 Anonymous>>10578
>>10558
you do have to understand why otherwise you could end up dropping into the same pitfalls and patterns
i think what it must've meant is that you don't need to solve everything to do this other critical thing thats crucial to now
No.10578 Anonymous>>10579
>>10573

My main point is that ‘understanding why’ doesn’t take that long. It’s a task with a success condition. Modern pop psych reimagines ‘understanding why’ as a lifelong cure like insulin, where the act of rumination is a good in itself
No.10579 Anonymous
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>>10578

Look, you are short-selling "why" in a CBT-compatible way. CBT and other rational-emotive therapies want meaningful behavior to be an accumulation of a lot of little projects. And maybe it is!

But the thing you're missing is at the deep roots of "why". Freud wasn't interested in the tiny "whys". Freud studied Schelling. I trust we've all read Teresa Fenichel's book on this? As you recall, the work of certain symbols cannot be reduced to a symbolic correlation or synthetic knowledge. Some symbols irreducibly signify in some way that is identical to their essential natures. The mean what they are and they are what they mean. The myth or the identification do not communicate meaning, but rather, they *are* meaning. In a word, these are "urphaenomena."

For Freud, the obvious place to look for urphaenomena is at the point where something can rupture through the synthetic and the analytic; something that can rupture through "self" and "world." And that's trauma! Trauma is where the world sinks its foundations into you, and where you sink your foundations into the world.

Such an urphaenomenon is not something that you can really patch with 12 weeks of worksheets. It's basically the central coupling at the heart of your entire sensorium.
No.10580 Anonymous
>>10560
thank you for your concern but im sure the majority of children on earth have suffered that same type of abuse, it's so common and there's really no cure for the post trauma disorders like depression and bpd that come as a result of the brain being damaged
No.10582 Anonymous>>10583
>>10557
just beaten that's it?
No.10583 Anonymous
>>10582
very funny